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Generators & Electric Motors General Discussion

Wisconsin TH with Ensign propane regulator


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  #1  
Old 01-12-2006, 07:25:41 PM
Shootist357 Shootist357 is offline
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Photo Wisconsin TH with Ensign propane regulator

I have a Wisconsin TH with an Ensign B regulator and carb attached. I cleaned and rebuilt the regulator, and it starts fine and runs fine...HOWEVER..I have to have the engine choked all the time or it will stall out. Also, the motor is running WAY to fast. I am getting 170 volts from a 115 head. I have the governor in the bottom hole which is as slow as it is supposed to go 1775 RPM. It is running much faster than that, and I can't figure out why. The governor/throttle adjustment is set up properly. I have no idea how to adjust the fuel setup. There are only 2 adjustments on the fuel setup. one is the needle jet on top of the regulator, and the other is a jet on the bottom of the carb. There is also a hollow plug with a locknut on the bottom left of the carb. The motor speeds up the longer I let it run also. I am feeding it with a 20lb BBQ tank and BBQ regulator. I put the regulator back together for testing without any gasket sealer, so I may be getting some leaks around the regulator. Can anyone provide me with some tuning help/description of jets/or anything else?
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  #2  
Old 01-13-2006, 10:39:39 AM
K D Redd K D Redd is offline
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Default Re: Wisconsin TH with Ensign propane regulator

The demand regulator you have can be feed tank pressure. You do not need a 11 inch water colume regulator in front of this demand regulator like a Garretson KN. It is hard to tell from the picture but the screw on top is idle mixture I think. The screw on the bottom or on the right side of the picture would be you high speed mixture. As to your speed control problem, do you have a spring on the govener that you can reduce it's tention to reduce the engines RPM? Are you sure the govener is not seized some way. The weights may be hung-up inside the engine.

Kent
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Old 01-13-2006, 02:50:28 PM
Shootist357 Shootist357 is offline
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Default Re: Wisconsin TH with Ensign propane regulator

The regulator is stamped inlet pressure 4-8 oz. That is why I have the BBQ reg feeding it. As far as the governor goes; I have the spring attached in the proper location, and it is set for the least amount of tension(lowest speed). I'm not sure why it is running so fast. I need to get an inductive tach to check it out. I only run it for a few seconds since I have no idea how fast it is running. I really appreciate all the help you have provided me. Between the two of us, this thing may actually run perfectly. Shootist
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Old 01-13-2006, 09:18:05 PM
Shootist357 Shootist357 is offline
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Talking Re: Wisconsin TH with Ensign propane regulator

Ever have one of those moments...After thinking about my problem all day and not coming up with any answers, I stood there before dinner staring at the engine. I reached down and pulled off the air intake tube and realized that when I thought I was at full choke I was actually wide open! Yea, I'm losing it. I'll give her a shot this weekend and see what I come up with. Shootist
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Old 01-14-2006, 01:48:06 PM
Shootist357 Shootist357 is offline
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Photo Re: Wisconsin TH with Ensign propane regulator

Well, it runs fine as far as I can tell. I have no idea if the mixture is right, or how to adjust it, but it starts easy and runs smooth. The only problem is controlling the load vs no load speed. With it running @ 115 volts/57.3 hz and a 11.73 amp 1,375 watt load, it runs fine. As soon as I remove the load the voltage/speed jumps up to 178 volts. That is a lot of change for a 1375 watt load on a 5000w genset. I've included some better photos of my setup. There are two adjustments on the carb; the bottom one must be the mixture jet (doesn't seem to do much) the hex adjustment on the left is a hollow plug and seems to work as an rpm/load adjuster. It makes a tremendous amount of change in engine speed with a little turn. The thumbscrew on top of the regulator...I have no idea what it does. I know there has to be an ensign expert somewhere on the forum...Shootist
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Old 01-15-2006, 10:46:48 AM
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Elden DuRand Elden DuRand is offline
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Default Re: Wisconsin TH with Ensign propane regulator

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shootist357
.......It makes a tremendous amount of change in engine speed with a little turn. The thumbscrew on top of the regulator...I have no idea what it does. I know there has to be an ensign expert somewhere on the forum...Shootist
I'm not an expert on your plant but you've got governor problems. Were it mine, I'd take the governor off and check it out.

Take care - Elden
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Old 01-15-2006, 01:00:30 PM
KidDynamo KidDynamo is offline
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Default Re: Wisconsin TH with Ensign propane regulator

57.3 hz means you are running slow, too. Get the thing running at 60 hz and see it the governor controls it any better when it is at proper speed. If you're too slow to begin with, maybe the governor can't do its job.

You may eventually need the speed to be a tad higher at no load so it will run at 60 hz with a load. I don't like that concept but maybe on small gensets, this might be the case.

Eldon has a point, though. You might want to take a peek at the governor guts to make sure it isn't worn out or gnarled up somehow.
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Old 01-15-2006, 06:49:07 PM
K D Redd K D Redd is offline
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Default Re: Wisconsin TH with Ensign propane regulator

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shootist357
The regulator is stamped inlet pressure 4-8 oz. That is why I have the BBQ reg feeding it. As far as the governor goes; I have the spring attached in the proper location, and it is set for the least amount of tension(lowest speed). I'm not sure why it is running so fast. I need to get an inductive tach to check it out. I only run it for a few seconds since I have no idea how fast it is running. I really appreciate all the help you have provided me. Between the two of us, this thing may actually run perfectly. Shootist
Shootist,
I think what you think is a stamping of an inlet pressure of 4 to 8 oz. may be the listing of the water capacity of the demand regulator. An demand regulator which has fittings and a water jacket to run engine coolent through the regulator is designed for a fuel input of LIQUID propane at TANK pressure. I DO NOT have an M-5 regulator to look at but I do have an M-6. You will sometimes here the regulator refered to as a vaporize as this is what happen on a larger engine. The liquid LPG vaporizes in the regulator. When the fuel vaporizes there is the need of heat. This heat is supplied by the engines coolent. If the regulator/vaporizer is not heated it will freeze up and the engine will stop. You would not have this problem as with an engine this small you could feed the regulator/vaporize with tank pressure vapor. I am just trying to free up your BBQ regulator so you could us ir on some other project. This is why I like call these units regulator/vaporizers.
With what you have posted, I will try my M-6 on my THD power welder I want to fuel with LPG. I have a source of junk 70's era school buses that may have more regulator/vaporizers on them. This is where I got the M-6 I have. Thanks for the information.

Kent
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Old 01-17-2006, 08:50:30 PM
Shootist357 Shootist357 is offline
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Default Re: Wisconsin TH with Ensign propane regulator

I really trust all of your opinions, or else I wouldn't be posting. I'm going to get it up to 60hz as you suggested, and take it from there. The only reference material I have is my TH book, so I'll peruse it once again this coming weekend. Hopefully your guys suggestions will pay off. Thanks for the inputs, and keep em coming !!! Shootist
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Old 01-21-2006, 01:30:32 PM
Shootist357 Shootist357 is offline
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Smile Re: Wisconsin TH with Ensign propane regulator

Well, she's still running smoothly...I have it set up to run at 65Hz no load (1950 rpm), and when I apply a load it drops to 53 Hz (1590 rpm). I'm not sure how to overcome this. I'm sitting on the idle stop screw at no load, and just kissing it under load. Maybe I need to go up a notch on the governor. I think a TH engine would produce enough HP/torque to not be loaded down. Maybe I need a higher volume fuel flow. I've played with every adjusment and have it running the best I can. I think I'll try removing the BBQ regulator and running straight tank pressure into the Ensign regulator. I also thought about putting a 100w stabilizing load on the output for my no-load rpm. Thanks to all those who replied. Shootist
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Old 01-21-2006, 02:05:48 PM
Shootist357 Shootist357 is offline
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Thumbs up Re: Wisconsin TH with Ensign propane regulator

Well, I guess there is a lot to learn about governors...I moved the spring up one hole to speed it up a little, and WOW !!! Absolutely perfect 60 hz at no load, 60 Hz at load...Once again, thanks to all the forum members for their advice. Now I'm off to become a self-proclaimed expert on Ensign carb/regulator mixture settings! Shootist
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Old 01-21-2006, 02:12:46 PM
Jim Rankin Jim Rankin is offline
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Default Re: Wisconsin TH with Ensign propane regulator

Congratulations!

Like so many other things about these old sets, you have to figure it out for yourself because no one else has another one anymore. I bet someone will search up your thread in a couple of years, if they bother to search before posting.
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Old 01-21-2006, 02:27:06 PM
Raymond Raymond is offline
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Default Re: Wisconsin TH with Ensign propane regulator

I see two potential problems. !. Most recent BBQ regulators have a restrictor orifice which may be in the POL. Try a straight through fitting. If there is a filter make sure it is on the tank pressure side.The 4-8 oz. is the inlet pressure range of that ensign regulator. It is expecting vaporized gas at 8 oz. max. I doubt a 20lb cylinder will run it for very long especially since the BBQ regulator is single stage with a max of about 30,000 BTU/hr, which is about 3 HP. DON'T PUT TANK PRESSURE ON THE ENSIGN OR IT'S OVER.
2.
The governor needs full un-obstructed control of the throttle linkage. The idle stop should be set at not over 800 rpm. The governor arm has probably three holes. The spring should be as close to the governor shaft as possible without hunting. Make sure the slot in the governor arm is keyed tightly to the governor shaft. There can't be any play there. The governor rod should be set so that full travel of the governor arm provides full throttle plate movement. Then set the speed with the spring tension adjustment and an old motor driven clock. You should be able to get 5% droop 1835-1755 rpm no load to full load. The throttle plate should not be opened past 50 % at load. If it is the engine is low on power either low gas or maybe timing. The mag must snap at TDC.
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Old 01-23-2006, 06:29:42 PM
Shootist357 Shootist357 is offline
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Default Re: Wisconsin TH with Ensign propane regulator

I swapped the BBQ regulator out for a standard 11" WC regulator with a straight through POL fitting. The governor spring is currently one hole higher than the manual says it should be, but the governor is working just like you stated. I have the idle stop backed out, and the motor runs at 1800 rpm with load or no load. I hate to mess with the governor setting just to drop it down a hole, when it seems to be running perfect as-is. What do you suggest?
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Old 01-25-2006, 02:54:21 AM
Raymond Raymond is offline
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Default Re: Wisconsin TH with Ensign propane regulator

Most factory settings are to cover all units. Some will have slightly different operating characteristics at the same conditions, others will vary more due to conditions such as altitude, fuel heat value, ambient temperature and load profile. I have to set my droop down slightly in cold weather or it hunts for several minutes. If yours runs perfect now I believe that puts it in the don't touch it mode. If you find it hunting in colder weather move the spring out 1 hole and re adjust the spring tension. Moving it out may cause it to overspeed so I'd back out the spring a few turns, then bring it up after it settles. I'd also set the speed around 1830 rpm (61 cycles) unloaded so at full load it will be around 58 cycles which is fine unless you have a frequency sensitive load. I had a friend with a fancy heating system that wouldn't run a half cycle off so we had to put a UPS on the control power to make it work dependably with the generator.
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Old 01-25-2006, 09:44:57 AM
K D Redd K D Redd is offline
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Default Re: Wisconsin TH with Ensign propane regulator

I am going to try this one more time. The M-5 demand regulator/vaporize CAN use direct tank pressure. You DO NOT need an 11 inch water colume regulator in front of it. I have a M-6 , which was the replacement for the M-5. Embossed on this demand regulator/vaporizer is WP( working pressure) 250. If you DO NOT believe me contact: Fairbanks Equipment Inc. at 1-800-666-5764 Wichita Ks. or 1-800-441-7550 Grand Island Ne. These people are propane equipment supplier. Ask these people what the working pressure of the M-5 demand regulator/vaporizer is.

Kent
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Old 01-25-2006, 05:05:59 PM
Wayne 440 Wayne 440 is offline
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Default Re: Wisconsin TH with Ensign propane regulator

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shootist357
...the motor runs at 1800 rpm with load or no load. I hate to mess with the governor setting just to drop it down a hole, when it seems to be running perfect as-is. What do you suggest?
Sounds like it is time to leave it alone.

Wayne
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Old 01-26-2006, 11:09:41 PM
Shootist357 Shootist357 is offline
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Default Re: Wisconsin TH with Ensign propane regulator

Quote:
Originally Posted by K D Redd
I am going to try this one more time. The M-5 demand regulator/vaporize CAN use direct tank pressure. You DO NOT need an 11 inch water colume regulator in front of it. I have a M-6 , which was the replacement for the M-5. Embossed on this demand regulator/vaporizer is WP( working pressure) 250. If you DO NOT believe me contact: Fairbanks Equipment Inc. at 1-800-666-5764 Wichita Ks. or 1-800-441-7550 Grand Island Ne. These people are propane equipment supplier. Ask these people what the working pressure of the M-5 demand regulator/vaporizer is.

Kent
I believe you...In fact I agree with you on the M5...BUT, I'm running the ENSIGN B regulator which won't take direct pressure.(The M5 is still on the bench) I REALLY APPRECIATE all the help you guys have given me. Hopefully I can contribute to another member someday. Shootist
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Old 01-27-2006, 09:45:14 AM
K D Redd K D Redd is offline
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Default Re: Wisconsin TH with Ensign propane regulator

Now I understand. I was under the impression you were using the M-5 regulator on your TH. Sorry

Kent
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