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Ajax 7 1/2 X 10, home from Kansas


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  #21  
Old 02-23-2006, 02:12:38 PM
Bob Johnson Bob Johnson is offline
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Default Re: Ajax 7 1/2 X 10, home from Kansas

Hi Keith

I would make sure that the flywheel and associated parts are free before trying to free the piston as you might be stuck somewhere else and in the process damage some other parts. If in doubt get the con rod off the crankshaft and then go from there. When you start on the piston do not force the head of the piston but force the skirt of the piston as this is what is stuck. Make a block of wood the diameter of your bore with a flat end so the pressure is around the edge so that all the force is on the skirt not the top of the piston.With this I would try the large sledge hammer first to see how tight it is stuck. From there I would either get lenghts of all thread and a plate or a chain around the rear and then put a 12 ton jack between the block on the piston and push that way. I have used drain oil and hydraulic fluid pumped by my 45 HP tractor to push with but you would have to have the head back on. Lots of luck.

Bob Out west on the high Dessert
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  #22  
Old 02-25-2006, 12:40:59 PM
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Smile Re: Ajax 7 1/2 X 10, home from Kansas

I've been working on the top cover of the cylinder head, the head nuts and a couple of the studs. Figured since I've got lots of rusty bits to play with I'd experiment with electrolysis. So far I've tried washing soda (Na2CO3) and baking soda (NaHCO3). I ran the part for about 5 hours, dried it and bead blasted to knock off loose stuff. Both worked pretty well and took about the same amount to bring the current up. From what I've seen so far I would not pick one over the other. Right now I've got some Borax (Na2B4O7) going. It took a lot more to get the current to come up but it is bubbling away. Figured I'd use the Edison method and just work my through the laundry list and see how they all work. I am going to avoid bleach or anything I figure would produce chlorine gas. So far these are all alkali solutions. When I'm done with those I thought I'd go through some acid solutions. I've got several common flavors of that kicking around. I'll stay with fairly dilute solutions as I don't want things to get too exciting. After the acid bath I think I would want to do a soak in an alkali solution to make sure any acid in neutralized.

Fun with science,
keithw
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  #23  
Old 02-25-2006, 06:55:38 PM
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Default Re: Ajax 7 1/2 X 10, home from Kansas

Keith:

You may want to try a little "Oxy-Clean" the next time you mix up a batch of electrolyte. I find it works well.

To get the concentration right, I set up the part in water. Then I turn on the power supply and set the voltage to about 20.

THEN, I start adding Oxy-Clean, stirring it in slowly. As the mixture gets more concentrated, it will start drawing current so you may have to lower the voltage to keep from overpowering the supply.

When adding more chemical to the solution makes little or no difference in the current, you're there.

Actually I think it's the Watts that are the important part. Volts times Amps.

Take care - Elden
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  #24  
Old 02-26-2006, 12:40:03 AM
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Default Re: Ajax 7 1/2 X 10, home from Kansas

I'll have to get some Oxy-Clean next time I'm out. I've got a vinager (CH3COOH) solution going now. It is not forming foamy sludge like the soda solutions but it is fizzing like crazy. Almost looks like it is boiling. Dragged the cover out and poked at the remaining rust and it seemed pretty soft. The real test is tomorrow when I dry it off and hit it with the glass bead. Anybody up to speed on the chemistry of why electrolysis works? The cathode or negative electrode produces hydrogen. I wonder if the iron oxide (Fe2O3) and the hydrogen (H2) are combining to form iron powder (Fe) and water (H2O). Someone better at chemistry than me will have to answer that one.

keithw
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  #25  
Old 02-26-2006, 12:42:20 AM
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Default Re: Ajax 7 1/2 X 10, home from Kansas

BTW, the Borax seemed pretty much a bust. Took lots to bring the current up and it didn't seem to loosen the rust any.

keithw
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  #26  
Old 02-26-2006, 11:19:09 AM
Greg-N-CA Greg-N-CA is offline
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Default Re: Ajax 7 1/2 X 10, home from Kansas

I've been using washing soda only for years and have had great results. After cleaning a part in the tank for a week or so, I hit it was my hot water power washer and I'm usually down to bare metal with little scrubbing. I'll have to try "spicing" things up a bit with other additives.

Elden, what are you using for a power source?
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  #27  
Old 02-26-2006, 12:56:50 PM
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Question Re: Ajax 7 1/2 X 10, home from Kansas

OK folks, this will be a little long but I need some help here. I think I'm on to something and I'd like someone to try it out to verify my results. For Anodes I used two pieces of 20 Ga sheet steel about 1 foot by 6 inches. One on each side of a bucket. The cathode was my rusty plate about a foot in diameter suspended between the two. For my solution I used Vinager, about 3 quarts to three galons of water. For power my 12 volt battery charger, pulled about 6 Amps. At first it bubbled like crazy but did not produce the normal brown crud. After a couple hours I pulled the rusty bit out and the rust seemed to be getting softer. Left it over night. In the morning I had brown crud and the current was up to about 10 amps. Pulled the piece out and it was really really clean and had some iron whiskers in a few places.

Here are my thoughts about the electrolysis process. I think with an alkali (soda) solution the Anode is giving up iron creating Fe+ ions. These are attracted to the rusty cathode where they rob the Oxygen (O) from the rust. This leaves the black residue normally seen. The Fe+ combined with the Oxygen robbed from the rust forms more rust (Fe2O3) creating the brown foam. Using an acid modifies this process. Acids have a lot of Hydrogen (H+) ions. I think what was happening at first is that the Hydrogen ions were robbing the Oxygen from the rust forming water (H2O) and iron (Fe). Once the Hydrogen ions (H+) were all used up during the night some time it dropped back to the iron ion (Fe+) cycle. This created the brown crud I saw this morning. I suspect that the optimum would be to run it till the brown crud just starts to form and then change the acid solution.

The vinager (CH3COOH) seems to have a lot going for it compared to other acids. Hydrochloric (HCl) and Sulphuric (H2SO4) have the Chlorine and Sulphur I would prefer to avoid. The vinager is easy to dispose of and seems loke it would not form any obnoxious gasses.

As you might have guessed I have spent some time writing technical reports. Sorry for being so long but it looks like I might be onto something and it would be nice if someone could check it out and let us know how it works for them.

keithw
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  #28  
Old 02-26-2006, 05:26:13 PM
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Default Re: Ajax 7 1/2 X 10, home from Kansas

I took the piece and bead blasted it. Discovered something interesting. Looks like the rust had indeed been converted to iron powder, but, then it had been plated over with a nice layer of fresh smooth iron. So I had the base metal then a layer of black powder and them a layer of iron. Interesting but not exactly what I was looking for. I'm thinking the rust conversion happened early in the H+ rich vinegar solution. As the vinegar was all used up the solution went to a Fe+ rich environment and the iron was plated on. I'll see what I can do to seperate the two processes. One thought is to make sure the vinegar stays strong enough and another would be to go with a carbon anode. Our tap water has lots of minerals and it conducts fairly well with nothing added. This batch I used distilled water. As the vinager is used up it should just peter out and stop conducting.

Even if I don't find anything useful it is being fun .

keithw
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  #29  
Old 02-26-2006, 10:12:38 PM
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Exclamation Re: Ajax 7 1/2 X 10, home from Kansas

Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg-N-CA
..........Elden, what are you using for a power source?
Greg:

Go here:
http://home.cybertron.com/~edurand/O...ctrolysis.html

This is my electrolysis page, showing the junkbox power supply I made.

Take care - Elden
http://home.cybertron.com/~edurand
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  #30  
Old 02-27-2006, 07:05:11 AM
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Red face Re: Ajax 7 1/2 X 10, home from Kansas

Thanks for the info Elden. That is a pretty good looking power supply. I tried the vinegar thing again with distilled water. Got totally different results compared to our loaded with every known mineral, lumpy hard, tap water. That is most likely why electrolysis has never worked very well for me no matter what I used for electrolite. The whole thing is soured by the junk in our water. I'm not the first person to be led on a merry chase by bad lab procedures. At least I didn't discover cold fusion. I'll get out and load up with distilled water and see if I can find somy Oxy-Clean.

keithw
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  #31  
Old 02-27-2006, 09:57:51 AM
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Default Re: Ajax 7 1/2 X 10, home from Kansas

Quote:
Originally Posted by KeithW
Thanks for the info Elden. ...........I'll get out and load up with distilled water and see if I can find somy Oxy-Clean.

keithw
Keith:

Look at Wally World or your local Pig, etc. They usually carry it in the cleaning stuff area.

Take care - Elden
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  #32  
Old 02-27-2006, 03:08:24 PM
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Lightbulb Re: Ajax 7 1/2 X 10, home from Kansas

Note to self (and anyone else that is interested): If the electrolysis acts stupid try distilled water. Has anyone tried electrolysis on an iron cylinder with an aluminum piston stuck in it? I'm usually willing to try new stuff but I don't think I want to risk turning this piston to swiss cheese. The cylinder on the Ajax bolts to the block. If I loosen the bolts I should be able to push the piston loose and remove the cylinder without turning the rest of the engine. Might even be able to remove the cylinder, piston and connecting rod in one piece.

keithw
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  #33  
Old 02-27-2006, 11:10:44 PM
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Default Re: Ajax 7 1/2 X 10, home from Kansas

I think that the vinegar experiment might not be a total loss. It did plate a nice layer of fresh iron onto the part. In my case it most of it sand blasted off as it was over iron powder. However, if the base metal was good and clean it could stick pretty well. Might be usefull for building up worn or pitted parts. Could be worth more tinkering.

keithw
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  #34  
Old 03-06-2006, 07:02:04 PM
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Photo Re: Ajax 7 1/2 X 10, home from Kansas

Doing a little more work. Removed the cooling jacket access cover on the side of the cylinder. Inside was packed solid with crud.

http://members.aol.com:/keith0alan/images/ajax6.jpg

Dug most of it out. There was a bunch of it. I doubt that very much water was getting through here.

http://members.aol.com:/keith0alan/images/ajax7.jpg

Took a scrap small block chevy flywheel and drilled head stud holes into it. Plan to put a big timber between it and the piston and carefully torque the nuts down. With any luck the piston will come loose. Rather than turn the flywheel, I will loosen the nuts that hold the cylinder to the block and see if I can push the cylinder off the piston without turning the rest of the engine.

http://members.aol.com:/keith0alan/images/ajax8.jpg

Need to see if I can get the water pump off the other side of the cylinder first.

keithw
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  #35  
Old 03-06-2006, 11:59:28 PM
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Default Re: Ajax 7 1/2 X 10, home from Kansas

Your getting there Keith! Keep up the good work and keep us posted on your progress! I've got a 6 1\2'' X 8'' Model CM, they sure are neat engines and boy do they sound NEAT. I tried starting mine by hand the first time and got all wore out and frustrated but after I stared it with help from my tractor and got the rings to seat in it starts pretty easy now.
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  #36  
Old 03-07-2006, 11:17:20 PM
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Photo Re: Ajax 7 1/2 X 10, home from Kansas

Well, The cylinder is off . About two hours last night and about nine today. My wife says I have a lot of patience. I was thinking more like pig headed stubbornness and lack of good sense . Using the big space heater to warm it up seemed to help. Crank down on the nuts and it would go "pop" and move about 1/16 of an inch at a time. Sure glad it wasn't really stuck. At first glance it looks like the piston and rings are in reasonable condition.

http://members.aol.com:/keith0alan/images/ajax9.jpg

http://members.aol.com:/keith0alan/images/ajax10.jpg

http://members.aol.com:/keith0alan/images/ajax11.jpg

In a couple of days when I can stand to look at again I'll pressure wash the cylinder and see how it looks.

When I pulled the water pump off the side of the cylinder that side was also full of stuff. Along with rust sludge was some fairly clean cotton . Somehow a mouse had gotten all the way into the water jacket around the cylinder and built a nest. Those little beggers will get into the most amazing places.

keithw
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Old 03-10-2006, 11:27:04 PM
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Default Re: Ajax 7 1/2 X 10, home from Kansas

Spent some time cleaning the piston today. Three of the rings came loose and two broke. Those top two were really stuck. The piston really looks to be in good shape. Cleaning the crown is going to be a challange. Heavy rust deposits. The iron must have been migrating from the head and been deposited on the aluminum piston.

Started working on the water pump. Cast iron and weighs more than some engines. Mixed up a fresh batch of electrolysis electrolite, distilled water, Oxy-Clean and washing soda. Using carbon electrodes. Working great this time. The thing had oil of some kind in it. I washed it with hot water and I've still got a noticable amount of oil on top of the electrolite. Pulled it out of the bath after a couple hours and hosed it down again. Another couple hours and the same thing. It has a couple grease cups that were rusted tight. They can be turned by hand now. When it works it really works, when it doesn't it's a mystery .

keithw
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Old 03-13-2006, 10:10:44 PM
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Photo Re: Ajax 7 1/2 X 10, home from Kansas

Worked on the cylinder. Pressure washed it. Dried with the 80,000 BTU propane space heater. Water wasn't a worry, I was trying to drive off all the petrochemicals I could. The area above the piston looks pretty scabbed up.

http://members.aol.com:/keith0alan/images/ajax12.jpg

It's hanging in a 32 gallon plastic trash can doing the electrolysis thing right now. Filled it up pretty good. I've got carbon electrodes hanging inside the bore. I'll drag it out tomorrow and check on the progress.

The weather was half way good for the first time in a week. Might get back to sand blasting the head tomorrow.

Hopefully the DEA or homeland security aren't on the look out for scroungy looking characters buying lots of distilled water .

keithw
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Old 03-14-2006, 08:35:01 PM
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Photo Re: Ajax 7 1/2 X 10, home from Kansas

Ran the electrolysis on the cylinder all night and all morning. Pulled it out and pressure washed it. Most of the rust is gone from inside the cylinder. Not only does it have big pits lots of it looks spongey. Looks like I'll be doing the sleeve thing. Finally got the cover off the water pump. I was expecting a regular automotive style vane pump. Wrong, it has big gear teeth looking things and such.

http://members.aol.com:/keith0alan/images/ajax13.jpg

Anybody know about these? It's siezed up and knowing how it's supposed to come apart would be nice. Save me from breaking it .

Once I get the cylinder derusted I think I might put it back on and work on the side shaft stuff for a while. It would be nice to get the side shaft stuff freed up so I can turn the flywheel.

keithw
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Old 03-15-2006, 05:37:52 PM
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Photo Re: Ajax 7 1/2 X 10, home from Kansas

Well here is the cylinder coming out of the soup.

http://members.aol.com:/keith0alan/images/ajax15.jpg

Pressure washed it, blew it off and dried with the space heater.

http://members.aol.com:/keith0alan/images/ajax14.jpg

The combustion chamber end if the inside of the cylinder is pretty much a total loss. Dont think even JB Weld will fix this . A sleeve is in the long range plans.

http://members.aol.com:/keith0alan/images/ajax16.jpg

Now that the piston moves in the cylinder, I stuck it back together and cleaned up a bit. I'll keep fiddling with the water pump and the govener/magneto/air cleaner assembly. Once I get them loose I'll actually be able to turn the thing over. Once I get things apart, cleaned up and figured out it will be time to get serious and spend some money on repair parts.

I checked with my local car parts store on the W-89D spark plug it uses. They can get them, but, the minimum order is $100 . Think I'll check with our sponsers and sparkplugs.com.
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