Oil Field Engines
[Home] - [HELP] - [Forums] - [Library] - [Photo Gallery] - [Groups] - [Classified Ads] - [Subscribe] - [Links] - [Books] - [Sponsors] -

Go Back   SmokStak > SmokStak® Antique Engine Community > Oil Field Engines & Related Equipment
Forgot Password? Join Us!

Notices

Oil Field Engines & Related Equipment OFES members otherwise known as "Oafs". If you like "BIG OLD GREASY RUSTY OIL FIELD ENGINES, you're in the right place. Founded by Russell Farmer.

Oil Field Engines & Related Equipment

In need of a 20 hp Bessemer cylinder.


this thread has 38 replies and has been viewed 4331 times

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 04-18-2007, 10:22:01 PM
DirtbikePilot DirtbikePilot is offline
Subscriber
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Cortez, Colorado
Posts: 845
Thanks: 975
Thanked 449 Times in 205 Posts
Unhappy In need of a 20 hp Bessemer cylinder.

I bought a 20 hp Bessemer from a not-so-trustworthy individual a few months ago and was told that it would run with some honing. I called Niagra piston ring works to order some rings and was told that I would be wasting my money after I explained the state of the cylinder. They said the 0.030 taper from the exhaust port to the head end and the remaining pits (still large) would leave me with almost no compression after putting in the new rings.

I took the cylinder to a machine shop that has the ridgid hones necessary and told them to do their best with it. They're good people and they did the best they could, but it's pretty hopeless.

I'm left with two options: either I get a new cylinder for it, or I accept my losses (~1800 so far) and send it to the scrap yard. I've spent pretty much all I can on this and I really regret every buying it. Does anyone have a cylinder for this that won't cost a ton?
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
  #2  
Old 04-18-2007, 11:25:28 PM
Frank Martin Frank Martin is offline
Registered-II
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania USA
Posts: 128
Thanks: 4
Thanked 41 Times in 22 Posts
Default Re: In need of a 20 hp Bessemer cylinder.

I don't know much about this type of engine but is it possible that you could bore the cylinder oversize and install a sleeve?
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 04-19-2007, 12:09:53 AM
DirtbikePilot DirtbikePilot is offline
Subscriber
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Cortez, Colorado
Posts: 845
Thanks: 975
Thanked 449 Times in 205 Posts
Default Re: In need of a 20 hp Bessemer cylinder.

Yes, but I could buy a complete running engine for less than the cost of getting this cylinder sleeved. It would run about 2400 to get it sleeved. It's going to the scrap yard LONG before I do that.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 04-19-2007, 01:07:18 AM
DirtbikePilot DirtbikePilot is offline
Subscriber
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Cortez, Colorado
Posts: 845
Thanks: 975
Thanked 449 Times in 205 Posts
Default Re: In need of a 20 hp Bessemer cylinder.

Well, I've decided that I'm just going to accept the fact that I got screwed and move on. I don't have enough money to go any farther with this engine and it's going to get scrapped. If anyone wants it, I'll sell it for scrap price if you will come and get it within the next couple of weeks.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 04-19-2007, 09:40:20 AM
Eric M.'s Avatar
Eric M. Eric M. is offline
Registered-III
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Southern CA, USA
Posts: 2,107
Thanks: 1,013
Thanked 1,089 Times in 477 Posts
Default Re: In need of a 20 hp Bessemer cylinder.

Tarnation. I hate to see it go to such a bad end. If you can hold on a bit, I will get the opinion of the museum near me on whether they would want it or not.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 04-19-2007, 09:42:59 AM
Patrick McNallen Patrick McNallen is offline
Registered-III
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Texas
Posts: 1,250
Thanks: 0
Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Default Re: In need of a 20 hp Bessemer cylinder.

I am sorry that you have run into problems. That said, if I were you, I would put the engine back together with the new rings. This type of engine can tolerate a lot of wear and pitting in the bore and still run OK. You will need to see to it that the piston rod packing is good and that the ignition system and mixer valve are working right. You might set the crank bearings a little on the loose side to reduce friction to aid in starting. When assembling, some people put #2 grease on the piston to help seal the new rings. If you can get the engine started, I think you will find that it will run better the longer it runs, and that after a few hours of run time it will run just fine. The engine is not junk, it is just another old engine that needs some TLC. Remember that many old engines had some type of compression release to aid in starting them. The engine will start and run with low compression if everything else is right.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 04-19-2007, 09:54:10 AM
Patrick McNallen Patrick McNallen is offline
Registered-III
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Texas
Posts: 1,250
Thanks: 0
Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Default Re: In need of a 20 hp Bessemer cylinder.

If you did not already buy new rings for the engine, using the old ones is an option, or if you will post the exact bore size, number of rings, and ring width, someone probably has some good ones laying around. I may have some. I have a several sets of good or new rings for various old engines. They can be boxed up and shipped to you cheaply. Measure the bore at the crankshaft end, just back of the exhaust ports. Measure the 3rd or 4th ring groove from the head end of the piston for both width and depth.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 04-19-2007, 10:12:19 AM
Doug Waggonner's Avatar
Doug Waggonner Doug Waggonner is offline
Registered-III
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Catoosa, Oklahoma USA
Posts: 1,412
Thanks: 814
Thanked 887 Times in 376 Posts
Default Re: In need of a 20 hp Bessemer cylinder.

I agree with Patrick 110% one of my 1st engines a Fairbanks, had MAYBE 10 lbs of compression . And you talk about the smoothest running damn thing! When it fired it was a smooth poooooooooof. Just to do what we do with the old engines, i.e. sit back and watch em spin, it dont take much compression at all to accomplish this. On my 35hp Superior the back of the cyl has about .150 thou clearance and it has a TON of compression, with the origional rings! So dont throw in the towl , put it back together, grease up the piston and run it.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 04-19-2007, 11:13:26 AM
DirtbikePilot DirtbikePilot is offline
Subscriber
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Cortez, Colorado
Posts: 845
Thanks: 975
Thanked 449 Times in 205 Posts
Default Re: In need of a 20 hp Bessemer cylinder.

Ok guys, thanks for the replies. I was getting REALLY frustrated yesterday at the thought of putting all this work into it and it being junk. I guess I'll give it a try. It still needs a ton of work though. I'm still skeptical because if the blowby goes behind the piston, it won't run.

The rings are 1/2 inch wide and the bore is 9.5 inches. I'm not sure what the depth of the groove is, but it's pretty close to 3/8 inch. If anyone has some cheap rings that they don't want, I'd surely appreciate it. It takes 5 of these buggers and all the old rings had to be broken to remove accept the one in the back.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 04-19-2007, 02:25:23 PM
Patrick McNallen Patrick McNallen is offline
Registered-III
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Texas
Posts: 1,250
Thanks: 0
Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Default Re: In need of a 20 hp Bessemer cylinder.

I will check and see if I have any rings that size. Measurements need to be exact. I doubt if you will have a serious blowby problem, since some of the rings are located way down the bore even when the piston is at TDC. The piston rod helps to hold the piston straight in the bore on these engines by eliminating side thrust, and the speed and working pressures are relatively low. The length of the piston also helps to stabilize it, and it spreads the ring locations out down the length of the bore. The .030 taper in a 9.5" bore on a crosshead engine is not as serious as it would be in a Chevy 350. You would need around .010 to .015 piston clearance on this engine anyway, so the .030 taper would leave you only about .007 over at the head end of the bore on each side of the piston. When the engine is warmed up, this clearance will tighten up some, and the oil film and carbon deposition will help a little, too. The 5 wide rings and long, full skirted piston will help hold compression even with the pitted bore.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 04-19-2007, 05:32:50 PM
DirtbikePilot DirtbikePilot is offline
Subscriber
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Cortez, Colorado
Posts: 845
Thanks: 975
Thanked 449 Times in 205 Posts
Default Re: In need of a 20 hp Bessemer cylinder.

Could someone please tell me how the heck to get the rod off the piston? The existing one is pitted beyond the point where it's no longer round and not as thick in some places. I got a piece of 1 5/8 steel rod to replace it, but I can't get the old one out. I thought about putting jb weld on the rod to build it back up, but it won't last long enough.

Also, does anyone know where to get rod packing?

Thanks

Chris
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 04-19-2007, 08:35:45 PM
Patrick McNallen Patrick McNallen is offline
Registered-III
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Texas
Posts: 1,250
Thanks: 0
Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Default Re: In need of a 20 hp Bessemer cylinder.

I have a 1920 and 1923 Bessemer parts list. For the 15 thru 35 HP engines, they show a piston rod that is threaded at the crosshead end only, with several inches at the piston end turned down to a smaller diameter. (The smaller engines under 15 HP show threads and jam nuts on both ends of the piston rod, and all bolts and studs in all the cuts show threads) I assume that the rods without threads on the piston end were pressed into the piston and peened over. No dimensions are given except that the crossead end piston rod jam nuts were 1 5/8, 1 3/4, and 2" for the 15 to 35 HP range of engines. Has anyone ever taken one of these apart?
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 04-19-2007, 09:00:53 PM
Frank Stenger Frank Stenger is offline
Registered-II
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Kingsville, Ohio, USA
Posts: 93
Thanks: 95
Thanked 15 Times in 4 Posts
Default Re: In need of a 20 hp Bessemer cylinder.

Hi, dirtbike! Hey, just for reference, in August of last year I
had Niagara Piston Ring Works, Inc.
18455 Sciota Street
Corry, Pa 16407
Phone: (814) 664-9233
Email: info@niagarapistonringworks.com

make me three, 9.312" dia. by 1/2" wide cast iron
rings for my Sheffield halfbreed. They cost me about
$40 each + S&H. A nice lady called Mary took my order.

Also, I could not seem to get the nut off my piston rod
to remove it from the piston. So... I chucked the whole
darn piston up in my dinky 12" by 36" bed Craftsman (Atlas)
lathe and took about 0.024" off the radius of the rod to remove
some pits so the packing would seal it again. I finished the rod
with a file and some emery paper and it looks pretty good.
I used a 3-jaw chuck to grab 3 of the flats on the big hex nut
that holds the rod to the piston (on the top of the piston).
I had to center the rod using a dial indicator and shims under
select jaws of the chuck. The rod was too long for my lathe
using the normal tailstock so I cobbled up a special tailstock
to do the job.
I attached a few really fuzzy photos to show the process.
Frank Stenger
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	Photo001.jpg
Views:	164
Size:	32.7 KB
ID:	18398   Click image for larger version

Name:	Photo0041.jpg
Views:	151
Size:	21.4 KB
ID:	18399   Click image for larger version

Name:	Photo0051.jpg
Views:	139
Size:	28.3 KB
ID:	18400  
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 04-19-2007, 10:02:22 PM
DirtbikePilot DirtbikePilot is offline
Subscriber
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Cortez, Colorado
Posts: 845
Thanks: 975
Thanked 449 Times in 205 Posts
Default Re: In need of a 20 hp Bessemer cylinder.

Thanks. My lathe is only a 9x20, so no way it will fit in there. Can I get thicker packing if I have the rod turned down to 1 1/2 inches? That will make the remaining pits small enough to fill with jb weld. I still don't even know where to get it.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 04-19-2007, 10:30:00 PM
Frank Stenger Frank Stenger is offline
Registered-II
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Kingsville, Ohio, USA
Posts: 93
Thanks: 95
Thanked 15 Times in 4 Posts
Default Re: In need of a 20 hp Bessemer cylinder.

Well, I bought a couple of feet of square "rope" type
packing from Hit-n-miss int. (They are listed on the Stak
suppliers link.) I think I talked to "Ed" there but he looked
up some of their stock that was wide enough to fit in my
packing gland groove. He said to wrap it around the rod
to see how much length was needed. Then, cut the rope
into rings using an angle cut. Then, stack up the rings
so the cuts are staggered till you have enough depth to
suit the packing groove. He said to use a little grease on
the packing.
I didn't check McMaster Carr for packing rope, but they may
carry some stuff that would work.
The important thing, I guess, is to specify the radial width
of the packing gap between the new rod size and the
old packing recess hole.
Since I turned down my rod - but not the thread that fits
the crosshead - I figure I may need to fight the thread
thru the compressed packing in the future if I should want
to slide the piston out of the engine. I figure it should
come out without too much fighting - maybe pushing the
packing out after it gets jammed around the thread?
Frank Stenger
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 04-19-2007, 10:51:31 PM
Frank Stenger Frank Stenger is offline
Registered-II
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Kingsville, Ohio, USA
Posts: 93
Thanks: 95
Thanked 15 Times in 4 Posts
Default Re: In need of a 20 hp Bessemer cylinder.

OK, Dirtbike, I just checked (www.mcmaster.com) and and
they do carry a wide variety of rope-type compression
packing. Follow the links under the "Fastening and Sealing"
main heading. Click on "compression packing" and check out
the " Graphite-Impregnated Aramid" square rope. Follow the
links to where they list the available sizes - I think you can
find the right size here. Good to 300 deg F - I think that
would be OK for my halfbreed - don't know about the Bessemer.
But - they have a variety of other types to higher temps.
Frank Stenger
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 04-19-2007, 11:40:05 PM
DirtbikePilot DirtbikePilot is offline
Subscriber
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Cortez, Colorado
Posts: 845
Thanks: 975
Thanked 449 Times in 205 Posts
Default Re: In need of a 20 hp Bessemer cylinder.

Thanks for your help Frank. I checked out mcmaster.com, and I'm pretty sure they have something that will work. Now I just need to get some rings and see if this thing will live or not. I believe I've learned my lesson though. Cheap engines are the most expensive ones.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 04-20-2007, 03:08:03 PM
DirtbikePilot DirtbikePilot is offline
Subscriber
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Cortez, Colorado
Posts: 845
Thanks: 975
Thanked 449 Times in 205 Posts
Default Re: In need of a 20 hp Bessemer cylinder.

First off, a big thanks to everyone who has tried to help with this.

I re-measured the cylinder and I was way off last time. The vertical diameter is 9.573 inches and the horizontal diameter is 9.44 near the head end. I'm done with it. If anyone wants to pick it up in the next couple of weeks, you can have it. Otherwise, it's going to be scrapped for sure.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 04-20-2007, 07:22:57 PM
Patrick McNallen Patrick McNallen is offline
Registered-III
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Texas
Posts: 1,250
Thanks: 0
Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Default Re: In need of a 20 hp Bessemer cylinder.

That is a fair amount of out of round, but it probably ran that way for years on end unless it is rusted out that bad. If the original bore was 9.500", I don't see how one measurement could be way under that at 9.440. The parts books I have do not give the original bore sizes, unfortunately. How wide are the ring grooves, and how deep are they? The rear groove is probably the best to measure.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 04-20-2007, 10:10:42 PM
Patrick McNallen Patrick McNallen is offline
Registered-III
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Texas
Posts: 1,250
Thanks: 0
Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Default Re: In need of a 20 hp Bessemer cylinder.

I've got a bunch of rings, 17 in all, but they all appear to be for a 10" bore. When I squeeze the gap down to about 1/16", they measure right at 10 " diameter. They are 5/8" wide and about 1/4" thick. All have a diagonal cut gap which is drilled for a pin. Three of the rings are new, and the rest look like good used ones that have been peened or hammered to restore the tension. Two sets of 5 rings have the gap angle going left at the top when they are stacked, and the other set of 5 has it going the other way. There is a 2-cycle piston that has laid out here in the dirt for over 50 yrs that I know of, and it is 10" in diameter and uses 5 pinned rings 5/8" wide. I don't know what it fits. The piston rod is 2 1/4" diameter, and the deflector is eyebrow shaped like on a Franklin piston, but it ain't a Franklin because it doesn't have a gas passageway in it like three port Franklins have. The piston rod on my 22 1/2 HP Bessemer is 1 5/8 like Dirtbike's, and the one on my 25/30 HP is 1 3/4". So it looks like I've got 3 sets of rings for a mystery piston.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

F o r u m Jump

Similar Threads Chosen at Random
Thread Thread Starter F o r u m Replies Last Post
Bessemer 20 or 25 HP holmesjsh Oil Field Engines & Related Equipment 3 12-02-2007 08:01:37 PM
12 Hp Bessemer mike jones Oil Field Engines & Related Equipment 4 11-13-2007 11:47:51 PM
Bessemer cylinder badly rusted..... DirtbikePilot Oil Field Engines & Related Equipment 12 02-15-2007 10:10:47 PM
Need Help With 5 Hp Bessemer fireman Antique Gas Engine Discussion 2 06-29-2006 10:12:20 AM
22 1/2 hp Bessemer Ben Olsen Antique Engine Archives 1 05-27-2003 12:37:01 PM


Use "Ctrl" mouse wheel to change screen size.
All times are GMT -4. The time now is 09:13:39 AM.

Smokstak and Enginads site search!


All use is subject to our TERMS OF SERVICE
SMOKSTAK® is a Registered Trade Mark - A Community of Antique Engine Enthusiasts
Copyright © 2000 - 2019 by Harry Matthews P.O. Box 5612 - Sarasota, FL 34277